logiclife
06-20 12:38 AM
I would like to clarify a few things possibly misunderstood lately.
Firstly, IV core and all volunteers are fully aware and DO acknowledge that CIR, as we know today, is headed to its grave. Unless something new happens of political significance, all experts have ruled of reform before elections in November.
Secondly, IV core never has and never will bet on one bill. We have said that before and we say that again. CIR is not the only bill we are looking at for passing reforms that provide relief to legal hi-skills immigrants. We will look at the next opportunity to introduce our provisions in and are not going to sit around and wait for elections to come an go. And that means any bill. PACE, SKIL, immigration related, competitiveness related - ANYTHING.
Thirdly, no matter with IV or QGA does, or anybody does, a bill related to immigration is not going to be tabled on the House or Senate floor BEFORE CIR is officially dead. As long as CIR is even slightly in the picture, an immigration legislation will not be scheduled on Senate or House. That simply is not going to happen even if we hire 100 lobbyists and send million webfaxes. CIR has to go away first before Bill Frist or John Boehner puts another immigration bill on the schedule.
However, if CIR dies, we and other organizations like us will spare no time in making efforts to put something on schedule - from house side or senate side.
Firstly, IV core and all volunteers are fully aware and DO acknowledge that CIR, as we know today, is headed to its grave. Unless something new happens of political significance, all experts have ruled of reform before elections in November.
Secondly, IV core never has and never will bet on one bill. We have said that before and we say that again. CIR is not the only bill we are looking at for passing reforms that provide relief to legal hi-skills immigrants. We will look at the next opportunity to introduce our provisions in and are not going to sit around and wait for elections to come an go. And that means any bill. PACE, SKIL, immigration related, competitiveness related - ANYTHING.
Thirdly, no matter with IV or QGA does, or anybody does, a bill related to immigration is not going to be tabled on the House or Senate floor BEFORE CIR is officially dead. As long as CIR is even slightly in the picture, an immigration legislation will not be scheduled on Senate or House. That simply is not going to happen even if we hire 100 lobbyists and send million webfaxes. CIR has to go away first before Bill Frist or John Boehner puts another immigration bill on the schedule.
However, if CIR dies, we and other organizations like us will spare no time in making efforts to put something on schedule - from house side or senate side.
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lfadgyas
09-10 12:19 AM
Folks it has been long time I last wrote here � but this visa bulletin made me mad (sorry)
So I went and downloaded all the FLCDataCenter.com (http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CasePerm.aspx) data from 2000 till 2008. It looks like they recorded all the pre �perm cases as well. After this I exported all the stuff into mysql table and made some calculation on the labor certification data. Unfortunately cannot separate (e1,e2,e3 etc � some may want to try by country but �)
Again this is PERM � labor certification!!1 - but has to do with GC I guess...
Time frame 1999 Oct -2008 Oct:
Sum of cases: 720486, like '%CERT%' = 554635 (certified), like '%Deni%'= 60043 (denials), (Non duplicate case numbers were = 715191 (i.e. 5295 duplicates only from the 720486) )
There were ~100000 cases with some other �state� descriptions like Withdrawn = 13955, Received Regional Office = 69556 etc;
Anyway, by grouped years it comes to (sum � certified + denials +etc):
last action date with "null" entry ?? 34113
between '1999-10-01' and '2000-10-01' 74048
between '2000-10-01' and '2001-10-01' 82629
between '2001-10-01' and '2002-10-01' 89524
between '2002-10-01' and '2003-10-01' 95552
between '2003-10-01' and '2004-10-01' 98866
between '2004-10-01' and '2005-10-01' 6153
between '2005-10-01' and '2006-10-01' 79939
between '2006-10-01' and '2007-10-01' 98927
between '2007-10-01' and '2008-10-01' 61997
Guess work (nbr of labor certs are 10% less in each group � denials are not removed):
Still wait - % how many of that group still waiting � (some can give a better guess??)
Family x � one applicant will present 2.5 visa nbrs or so�.
Group Labor cert family x still wait 140000<-as of today
between '1999-10-01' and '2000-10-01' 74048 2.5 4% 7404.8 132595.2
between '2000-10-01' and '2001-10-01' 82629 2.5 9% 18591.53 114003.675
between '2001-10-01' and '2002-10-01' 89524 2.5 14% 31333.4 82670.275
between '2002-10-01' and '2003-10-01' 95552 2.5 19% 45387.2 37283.075
between '2003-10-01' and '2004-10-01' 98866 2.5 38% 93922.7 -56639.625
between '2004-10-01' and '2005-10-01' 6153 2.5 45% 6922.125 -63561.75
between '2005-10-01' and '2006-10-01' 79939 2.5 80% 159878 -223439.75
between '2006-10-01' and '2007-10-01' 98927 2.5 90% 222585.8 -446025.5
between '2007-10-01' and '2008-10-01' 61997 2.5 100% 154992.5 -601018
Do your calculation if you want �:eek:
So I went and downloaded all the FLCDataCenter.com (http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CasePerm.aspx) data from 2000 till 2008. It looks like they recorded all the pre �perm cases as well. After this I exported all the stuff into mysql table and made some calculation on the labor certification data. Unfortunately cannot separate (e1,e2,e3 etc � some may want to try by country but �)
Again this is PERM � labor certification!!1 - but has to do with GC I guess...
Time frame 1999 Oct -2008 Oct:
Sum of cases: 720486, like '%CERT%' = 554635 (certified), like '%Deni%'= 60043 (denials), (Non duplicate case numbers were = 715191 (i.e. 5295 duplicates only from the 720486) )
There were ~100000 cases with some other �state� descriptions like Withdrawn = 13955, Received Regional Office = 69556 etc;
Anyway, by grouped years it comes to (sum � certified + denials +etc):
last action date with "null" entry ?? 34113
between '1999-10-01' and '2000-10-01' 74048
between '2000-10-01' and '2001-10-01' 82629
between '2001-10-01' and '2002-10-01' 89524
between '2002-10-01' and '2003-10-01' 95552
between '2003-10-01' and '2004-10-01' 98866
between '2004-10-01' and '2005-10-01' 6153
between '2005-10-01' and '2006-10-01' 79939
between '2006-10-01' and '2007-10-01' 98927
between '2007-10-01' and '2008-10-01' 61997
Guess work (nbr of labor certs are 10% less in each group � denials are not removed):
Still wait - % how many of that group still waiting � (some can give a better guess??)
Family x � one applicant will present 2.5 visa nbrs or so�.
Group Labor cert family x still wait 140000<-as of today
between '1999-10-01' and '2000-10-01' 74048 2.5 4% 7404.8 132595.2
between '2000-10-01' and '2001-10-01' 82629 2.5 9% 18591.53 114003.675
between '2001-10-01' and '2002-10-01' 89524 2.5 14% 31333.4 82670.275
between '2002-10-01' and '2003-10-01' 95552 2.5 19% 45387.2 37283.075
between '2003-10-01' and '2004-10-01' 98866 2.5 38% 93922.7 -56639.625
between '2004-10-01' and '2005-10-01' 6153 2.5 45% 6922.125 -63561.75
between '2005-10-01' and '2006-10-01' 79939 2.5 80% 159878 -223439.75
between '2006-10-01' and '2007-10-01' 98927 2.5 90% 222585.8 -446025.5
between '2007-10-01' and '2008-10-01' 61997 2.5 100% 154992.5 -601018
Do your calculation if you want �:eek:
InTheMoment
06-14 03:46 PM
Can you all tell which state you applied from?
As per the bispecialization phase III of USCIS, I-485 applicants from eastern and southern states are processed at SRC (TX) while western and northern at LIN (NE).
Let's verify whether this stands true...those who got their receipts can verify.
As per the bispecialization phase III of USCIS, I-485 applicants from eastern and southern states are processed at SRC (TX) while western and northern at LIN (NE).
Let's verify whether this stands true...those who got their receipts can verify.
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sbabunle
05-03 06:21 PM
I agree with MChundi here. I have been in this process since 2002 and have worked closely with my lawyers but it never ceases to amaze me how much complexity is built into the GC system. Putting the ads, applying for labor, aplying for I-140 answering any throwbacks from DOL/UCSIS. TO add to that the goof ups by the immigration lawyers and their para-legals certainly confuses the hell out of u.
Most ppl who apply for GCs are unaware about retrogression and PBEC problems at the onset. Even if they are aware u think, "well, my labour will take abt a year or so so by then hopefully things will become current". I mean not a lot of us, have the time or the foresight to plan THAT much in advance.
Now if we as H1s dont know the deal here, H4's CERTAINLY dont know the deal and it takes them a LOT more time to grasp the reality of things coz they have to absorb many other things like learning how to drive here, learning how the credit system works here etc etc etc.
All that being said, i would ask the H4's to try and avoid pointing blame at the IV members. This is not an easy process for sure. We are in NO position to demand anything from the US Govt. Whatever progress we have made is also quite phenomenal. I Still cant believe we collected even $100,000+ !! Right now the best strategy is to solve the primary applicant's problems and try and get the dependents problems go away along with that.
I agree with you eb3-nepa. My story is pretty much same as yours. Its not
a good idea to blame IV. IV is trying to do whatever possible within its limits.
If we are going to point out and resolve the issues in the immigration area the list would grow day by day. I think its better to focus on critical issues ( like retrogression, automatic recapturing of Visas and removing or increasing the per country quota ) and lobby for them. Most importantly DO NOT criticize IV unless absolutley we have to. Because unnecessary criticism may kill many of the volunteers spirits. If we ask for too many things ( like work permissions for H4) we may end up in getting nothing.
I hope and pray some good law will come up where there will be some good for everyone.
thanks
babu
Most ppl who apply for GCs are unaware about retrogression and PBEC problems at the onset. Even if they are aware u think, "well, my labour will take abt a year or so so by then hopefully things will become current". I mean not a lot of us, have the time or the foresight to plan THAT much in advance.
Now if we as H1s dont know the deal here, H4's CERTAINLY dont know the deal and it takes them a LOT more time to grasp the reality of things coz they have to absorb many other things like learning how to drive here, learning how the credit system works here etc etc etc.
All that being said, i would ask the H4's to try and avoid pointing blame at the IV members. This is not an easy process for sure. We are in NO position to demand anything from the US Govt. Whatever progress we have made is also quite phenomenal. I Still cant believe we collected even $100,000+ !! Right now the best strategy is to solve the primary applicant's problems and try and get the dependents problems go away along with that.
I agree with you eb3-nepa. My story is pretty much same as yours. Its not
a good idea to blame IV. IV is trying to do whatever possible within its limits.
If we are going to point out and resolve the issues in the immigration area the list would grow day by day. I think its better to focus on critical issues ( like retrogression, automatic recapturing of Visas and removing or increasing the per country quota ) and lobby for them. Most importantly DO NOT criticize IV unless absolutley we have to. Because unnecessary criticism may kill many of the volunteers spirits. If we ask for too many things ( like work permissions for H4) we may end up in getting nothing.
I hope and pray some good law will come up where there will be some good for everyone.
thanks
babu
more...
mirage
03-07 10:23 AM
Good point, has anybody asked this to any lawyer ? Can we challenge this in court ? This is the definition of judiciary review...If we can proove the country cap to be unconstitutional..
Judicial Review is when the Supreme Court reviews an act of Congress to see if it is Constitutional.
Judicial Review is the power of the Supreme Court to declare a law unconstitutuion (violation against the laws of the Constitutuion).
Anything that has language to exempt from quota is bound to run into severe resistance. However one thing here in US is to challenge any ambiguous negativity in courts. Has there been any instance of challenging country quota in the court as discrimination as some people brought it up earlier. Remember laws can also be changed through courts also, not just legislation.
Even though we are far from Citizenship test, I know there are 3 branches of government,
Judicial, Legislative and Executive.
We do not seem to have much hope in the Legislative(Senate/House) and Executive(president) what are the chances of using that approach.
Judicial Review is when the Supreme Court reviews an act of Congress to see if it is Constitutional.
Judicial Review is the power of the Supreme Court to declare a law unconstitutuion (violation against the laws of the Constitutuion).
Anything that has language to exempt from quota is bound to run into severe resistance. However one thing here in US is to challenge any ambiguous negativity in courts. Has there been any instance of challenging country quota in the court as discrimination as some people brought it up earlier. Remember laws can also be changed through courts also, not just legislation.
Even though we are far from Citizenship test, I know there are 3 branches of government,
Judicial, Legislative and Executive.
We do not seem to have much hope in the Legislative(Senate/House) and Executive(president) what are the chances of using that approach.
adobe howm
08-08 12:04 PM
Congratulations.
that is the good news. we are happy to hear this from you.
you could have posted the same on here "EB2 India/China GC Approvals Starting Aug 1st 2008" but worth stating this on a new thread so that you have something to remember when you look back in future. ;)
today is your official independence day from uscis. cheers :-)
that is the good news. we are happy to hear this from you.
you could have posted the same on here "EB2 India/China GC Approvals Starting Aug 1st 2008" but worth stating this on a new thread so that you have something to remember when you look back in future. ;)
today is your official independence day from uscis. cheers :-)
more...
ragz4u
05-02 12:38 PM
I am not sure about that. Most of the EB3 guys have advance degrees (including me) but not necessarily with US degrees.
I would not agree that most folks in EB3 have advanced degrees. Most do not. They have lot of experience though
believe me...you would think that people with advanced degrees would have applied in EB2...but there are cases where people have had to apply in EB3 category even with an advanced degree
I disagree with this too. Here are a few examples
1) A couple of years ago, when there was no retrogression, most folks did not want to take a chance and thought EB3 was a safer bet
2) Many Advanced Degree holders from US Univs joined a firm and their GC was applied immediately. But since they did not have enough work ex, they applied in EB3
3) Lots of scrupulous employers heard about retrogression and were actually very happy. They purposely filed even highly qualified folks as EB3 so that their abuse can be prolonged
4) Incompetent lawyers who felt they would not be able to prove the necessity of EB2
5) Sheer ignorance on the part of the beneficiary
I would not agree that most folks in EB3 have advanced degrees. Most do not. They have lot of experience though
believe me...you would think that people with advanced degrees would have applied in EB2...but there are cases where people have had to apply in EB3 category even with an advanced degree
I disagree with this too. Here are a few examples
1) A couple of years ago, when there was no retrogression, most folks did not want to take a chance and thought EB3 was a safer bet
2) Many Advanced Degree holders from US Univs joined a firm and their GC was applied immediately. But since they did not have enough work ex, they applied in EB3
3) Lots of scrupulous employers heard about retrogression and were actually very happy. They purposely filed even highly qualified folks as EB3 so that their abuse can be prolonged
4) Incompetent lawyers who felt they would not be able to prove the necessity of EB2
5) Sheer ignorance on the part of the beneficiary
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h1bmajdoor
05-04 04:48 PM
Well said eager_immi. Getting GC and getting job and earning is not the only thing in life.
maybe not. but does prevent the things that life is worth living for.
imho coming to the US was the worst mistake of my life. it took me about 5 years to see through the lies that the system, the employers and other desis propogate regarding h1 and prospects in US.
you can't get fair treatment as long as you are on h1. that is why the others will not let you get out of h1.
maybe not. but does prevent the things that life is worth living for.
imho coming to the US was the worst mistake of my life. it took me about 5 years to see through the lies that the system, the employers and other desis propogate regarding h1 and prospects in US.
you can't get fair treatment as long as you are on h1. that is why the others will not let you get out of h1.
more...
gc_on_demand
09-10 10:19 AM
Folks...
Dates move ahead means almost all people before 8 Jan 2005 will get their GC in Sep 2009.
If that comes not true then DOS has given Spill over visas to Eb2 india on day 1 of new quarter and will do same for every quarter. If this is the case then date will move forward only in Jan 2010 bulletin.
and if they moved date forward because there are only few hundreds case between Jan 8 and Jan 22 2005 then we will see very big movement in Aug - Sep 2009. There are very few Labor since Nov 2008. So Eb2 ROW will not utilize even 10k visas in next year thus Eb2 row will donate 20k + visas to Eb2 india and Eb1 do same ... if Eb4 and Eb5 doesnot get renewal before Sep 30th then expect 5k more visas total almost 55k Spill over to Eb2 india and China which will make Eb2 C by Sep 2010..
:):):):):):):)
Dates move ahead means almost all people before 8 Jan 2005 will get their GC in Sep 2009.
If that comes not true then DOS has given Spill over visas to Eb2 india on day 1 of new quarter and will do same for every quarter. If this is the case then date will move forward only in Jan 2010 bulletin.
and if they moved date forward because there are only few hundreds case between Jan 8 and Jan 22 2005 then we will see very big movement in Aug - Sep 2009. There are very few Labor since Nov 2008. So Eb2 ROW will not utilize even 10k visas in next year thus Eb2 row will donate 20k + visas to Eb2 india and Eb1 do same ... if Eb4 and Eb5 doesnot get renewal before Sep 30th then expect 5k more visas total almost 55k Spill over to Eb2 india and China which will make Eb2 C by Sep 2010..
:):):):):):):)
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lsbk
10-02 10:55 AM
Hi everyone,
Iam a July 3rd filer and the moneyorders for me and my wife has been cashed on September 28th. We had send 2 moneyorders for $745. Waiting for the receipts to come. Hope all of you get your receipts very soon.
Iam a July 3rd filer and the moneyorders for me and my wife has been cashed on September 28th. We had send 2 moneyorders for $745. Waiting for the receipts to come. Hope all of you get your receipts very soon.
more...
NKR
04-24 02:47 PM
Do you have any suggestions?
Yes I do.
If the employee needs to leave after two years and if he has had a good track record, relieve him in good terms, don�t scr** him.
If the employee helps in your business, you got to help him too (Just like the referral policy), don�t think that just because he works for you, he is obliged to help you in your business in other means, it is not in his list of roles and responsibilities.
It is the employer�s duty too to find projects, if the employee finds project for himself, then reward him with bonus.
Above all, the desi employers need to come out of cheap mentality and become more professionals.
Not that you care but I can give you more suggestions.
Yes I do.
If the employee needs to leave after two years and if he has had a good track record, relieve him in good terms, don�t scr** him.
If the employee helps in your business, you got to help him too (Just like the referral policy), don�t think that just because he works for you, he is obliged to help you in your business in other means, it is not in his list of roles and responsibilities.
It is the employer�s duty too to find projects, if the employee finds project for himself, then reward him with bonus.
Above all, the desi employers need to come out of cheap mentality and become more professionals.
Not that you care but I can give you more suggestions.
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i99
09-25 04:00 PM
July 2nd, R Williams, still waiting.
Can you tell us what time it reached NSC on July 3rd. Looks like lot of people July 3rd at 9:03 received by R.William are waiting for receipt. Are you one among them?
Can you tell us what time it reached NSC on July 3rd. Looks like lot of people July 3rd at 9:03 received by R.William are waiting for receipt. Are you one among them?
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goel_ar
11-18 01:22 PM
I will donate 100 dollars if they make any changes in DREAM Act wrt to Employment based immigration.
Even I participated in the campaign, but I don't think it will impact anything for us.
Even I participated in the campaign, but I don't think it will impact anything for us.
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maag
05-30 09:40 PM
I spent 5000$ + and all down the drain
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pamposh
08-18 01:14 PM
I think IV core shud take the matter with USCIS or the concerned people.
This is really not fair at all. What is the point of the PD then and to top it of there is no one we could contact and have them listen to our concerns.
This is really not fair at all. What is the point of the PD then and to top it of there is no one we could contact and have them listen to our concerns.
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Tarang
11-17 07:03 PM
Done.
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techysingh
08-01 06:48 PM
My I140 was approved at California center and my 485 is sent to Nebraska on june 22. Is that a problem?
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dixie
12-12 08:04 PM
Technically, we are applicants for immigrant status who are stuck in non-immigrant status indefinitely. A prospective immigrant is different from one granted legal residency (GC holder). Not sure if it makes a difference or not in the eyes of congressmen.
GCWaitforever, please make sure if stating that you are an immigrant is acceptable or not; in your letter to Sen. Sessions, I mean...
GCWaitforever, please make sure if stating that you are an immigrant is acceptable or not; in your letter to Sen. Sessions, I mean...
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hsingh82
09-10 09:23 PM
My sincere apologies for being harsh on IV members, I sincerely appreciate the efforts.
I guess Oct bulletin (EB3 - I) got me going there...
I realize it's not fair to criticize when I am just sitting on the sidelines and not contributing to the cause.
Peace.
Good gesture rahulp!
I guess Oct bulletin (EB3 - I) got me going there...
I realize it's not fair to criticize when I am just sitting on the sidelines and not contributing to the cause.
Peace.
Good gesture rahulp!
zoooom
07-19 06:48 PM
Although the thread title says "Reimburse the core team" and I know that the core team will not take any money (and do not expect the memebrs to reimburse them) from the fund that we are planning on creating here...Stilll by contributing to this fund we can make sure that core does not have to bear any out of pocket personal expense in future while working on "our" goal.
Lets see how many of us are actually inetested in contributing. Once we have the number we can set a realistic goal and divide amongst ourselves.
For that I suggest we give this thread good two days to develop and check other members responses...
So here is a chance for everyone to contribute to our own goal. Lets keep this going. Who ever is interested pls reply. I will do a final count after 2 days as suggested and take it from there....
Guys: Its good to see response...Pls reply with the text "In" and the amount.
Members,
I am sure most of us have already gone through this article but those who have not pls do so. This elablarately tells about the sacrifices our core team(especially Aman) had to make inorder to be where we are today...I am sure this will encourage you....
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...eek+exclusives
========================
Message from Pappu:
Aman has made more financial sacrifices and time sacrifices than anyone else. Not a single penny has been reimbursed to him for his trips to DC, food and stay in DC or car rental in DC. He even risked his job and went to DC on unpaid leave at critical times because lobbying was important for getting our work done. We in the core team know this and when we see the kind of contributions we get from members, we feel disappointed that our efforts are not valued. When we started the $20 contributions people felt $20 was too high and wanted $10 per month or less. The kind of work and effort that is needed to push a single provision is phenomenal and needs lot of capital. The more the better. Sometimes reading posts that say IV core is selfish also disappoints us. People do not know the effort that goes in getting anything done. This website is simply a tool for us to communicate to everyone. The big effort is the lobbying work. We hope the Buisnessweek article helps people realize our hard work and people value it by contributing to it and helping us in all action items.
"Members please pledge the amount. Do NOT pay right now. Since these funds are to be directed towards reimbursing the administrative costs of the core team , we are not going to be adding it to the IV funds. We are working on a strategy to get this amount across to the IV core team members. We will instruct you on how to make the payment, once we formulate a strategy"
Lets see how many of us are actually inetested in contributing. Once we have the number we can set a realistic goal and divide amongst ourselves.
For that I suggest we give this thread good two days to develop and check other members responses...
So here is a chance for everyone to contribute to our own goal. Lets keep this going. Who ever is interested pls reply. I will do a final count after 2 days as suggested and take it from there....
Guys: Its good to see response...Pls reply with the text "In" and the amount.
Members,
I am sure most of us have already gone through this article but those who have not pls do so. This elablarately tells about the sacrifices our core team(especially Aman) had to make inorder to be where we are today...I am sure this will encourage you....
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...eek+exclusives
========================
Message from Pappu:
Aman has made more financial sacrifices and time sacrifices than anyone else. Not a single penny has been reimbursed to him for his trips to DC, food and stay in DC or car rental in DC. He even risked his job and went to DC on unpaid leave at critical times because lobbying was important for getting our work done. We in the core team know this and when we see the kind of contributions we get from members, we feel disappointed that our efforts are not valued. When we started the $20 contributions people felt $20 was too high and wanted $10 per month or less. The kind of work and effort that is needed to push a single provision is phenomenal and needs lot of capital. The more the better. Sometimes reading posts that say IV core is selfish also disappoints us. People do not know the effort that goes in getting anything done. This website is simply a tool for us to communicate to everyone. The big effort is the lobbying work. We hope the Buisnessweek article helps people realize our hard work and people value it by contributing to it and helping us in all action items.
"Members please pledge the amount. Do NOT pay right now. Since these funds are to be directed towards reimbursing the administrative costs of the core team , we are not going to be adding it to the IV funds. We are working on a strategy to get this amount across to the IV core team members. We will instruct you on how to make the payment, once we formulate a strategy"
purplehazea
06-26 03:23 PM
1) This forum is for skilled legal immigrants
2) Any talk about illegal 'rights' and 'plight' is irrelevant to our discussion
3) Getting defensive about illegals or being offensive to any ethnic community is a sharp deviation from our proposed objectives at IV
4) If we do not have anything constructive to contribute while CIR dies, we should rather have constructive decisions about legal immigration bills or topics
5) Lets stay united and fight it out even though the chips may be down right now.
2) Any talk about illegal 'rights' and 'plight' is irrelevant to our discussion
3) Getting defensive about illegals or being offensive to any ethnic community is a sharp deviation from our proposed objectives at IV
4) If we do not have anything constructive to contribute while CIR dies, we should rather have constructive decisions about legal immigration bills or topics
5) Lets stay united and fight it out even though the chips may be down right now.
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